Mads Mathiasen, adventure travel entrepreneur in Nepal - Episode 4

Joost Schreve:

Hi everyone. Welcome to the fourth episode of the kimkim podcast. My name is Joost Schreve and I'm co-founder and CEO of kimkim. Today I have Mads Mathiasen on the podcast. Mads is one of kimkim's local experts in Nepal. Mads is currently dividing his time between Dubbo in Australia and Kathmandu while running his adventure travel company called Himalayan Trails. They organize great adventures in the Himalayas including trekking and mountain biking and do really cool original activities as well, such as Vespa tours in Kathmandu. Welcome, Mads. Thanks for joining us today.

Mads Mathiasen:

Thank you Joost.

Joost Schreve:

Great. First off, it's quite cool that a Danish guy living in Australia is speaking here with a Dutch guy living in California, talking about travel in Nepal.

Mads Mathiasen:

Yeah.

Joost Schreve:

I guess it's quite common in the type of work we're doing, but it's quite remarkable, right?

Mads Mathiasen:

It is. It is. And I guess it just shows how small the world has become with digital technology. We can sit and do our work across the planet from anywhere we like, really.

Joost Schreve:

Right. Exactly, exactly. Even including out on the trail sometimes right?

Mads Mathiasen:

Yeah, yeah. That part. Actually I kinda miss the days where I was not in contact with anyone when I was out trekking.

Joost Schreve:

Right. That's right. It's kind of a mixed blessing, I guess. I'd love to talk a little about how you, having grown up in Denmark, how you ended up running a travel company in Nepal.

Mads Mathiasen:

It's bit of a long story, but I guess I always grew up with lot stories being told in my family. Adventure stories and everything. As a family, we didn't do a lot of travel. There just wasn't time, money, whatever for that kind of thing, but my parents always kind of had this feeling that I would hit the tracks on my own once I got the opportunity, and I basically did straight out of school. I traveled a little bit in Africa and then somehow ended up, in '96, I ended up going to Nepal for the first time.

Joost Schreve:

Cool. From visiting Nepal to eventually then living there and staying there. That's quite a big step, right?

Mads Mathiasen:

Yeah. It certainly is and you know, to be honest, I never really had any interest in Asia or Nepal, but I was talked into going to Nepal with a few friends. You know, I've been blaming them ever since 'cause I seem to have gotten stuck there now. We're talking 20 years later. The first few times were just visits, as I said, but every time I went there, like in '96. I ended up staying, actually, for three months. Then I traveled overland all the way back to Europe and then basically found myself on a plane back to Nepal straight away again, and I think by '98 I had basically decided, well if I'm just going to be flying back and forth because I can't keep away from Nepal, I better find something to do here that can just keep me here.

Joost Schreve:

Right. In the beginning, were you just traveling or trekking? What were you doing while there?

Mads Mathiasen:

Yeah, I was just trekking, rafting, just exploring basically. Alley ways in Kathmandu to multi-week treks. I was very lucky that the company I ended up trekking with was a really good company run by a really good guy who, quite a few years later ended up becoming my current business partner.

Joost Schreve:

Okay great. How did you get into working with him?

Mads Mathiasen:

Well, as I said, the first few years, I started out guiding, trekking, day trips out of Kathmandu. A bit of mountain biking as a way to make a living and it became bigger and bigger. I had international groups that I took trekking and one year in those early years, I think I was out camping for 200 nights in one year. Then, I worked for especially one expedition company in their office in the off seasons in developing products, answering inquiries, all of that. I should say in those years, like conflict years, business was not that great actually.

Joost Schreve:

I guess Nepal went through a pretty difficult time in those years, right?

Mads Mathiasen:

Yeah, absolutely. Pretty tragic old story, but you know, Nepal has this amazing ability to get through hard times and you know business was there and we managed to do it. By 2002, 2003, I was kind of ready to say okay. I've spent some years in Nepal. I've met this lovely Australian girl. Why don't I give Australia a chance? But then what happened was that this guy who I had been, not working for, but who I said, in the early years, I went trekking with his company. He came and said, Mads, business is rather tough. Would you consider going into business together because I need some help. That was in 2003 and one thing led to another and I said yes. That's basically the company we're running today, Himalayan Trails.

It started there with helping out a friend. I had, in all of those years, been looking at the industry and thought I can improve on this and I guess also had this feeling that what I could really do to help Nepal as a developing country was to create good jobs, good opportunities for people to actually develop their own country the way they prefer to do it.

Joost Schreve:

Right. Can you talk a little bit more about the thing you were seeing that you thought could be improved in the way travel is organized there?

Mads Mathiasen:

It was a lot about how people were treated, you know. Everything from porters to guides. Just improving working conditions basically but also lot of things like menus while on camping treks to management also when on camping treks, not leaving rubbish behind to just a lot of logistical things, you know. Or you could say, in the office. Payment terms. There was a lot of people who didn't pay bills on time or never. And I thought, well if I run a company, I can do this better. You know. I've been quite successful with a few of the things, but I've also, you know, run into trouble with others, but that's how it goes, I guess.

Joost Schreve:

Right. Sure. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the challenges? I mean, I'm sure living in a city like Kathmandu in a country, in Nepal, there must be quite a bit of challenge coming your way right?

Mads Mathiasen:

As a foreigner, you're an outsider and that brings a lot of opportunity. It's a really welcoming country, but also it takes a lot to understand how Nepal really works, how people work and accept that, I guess. One of the biggest challenges, I guess, has been accepting that things aren't on time, that there'll always be something that goes wrong if it absolutely can. It will. That's kind of become one of the things that keeps me doing this as well because I now really enjoy the challenge of having to always have a plan B, a plan C in the back of my mind, whenever we do something a little bit bigger than a normal trek.

Joost Schreve:

Right. Do travelers typically fully accept that or is that also creating some friction sometimes?

Mads Mathiasen:

It does, but I think we know we're pretty good at explaining that Nepal doesn't work like Switzerland. Nothing works like that, in fact. There's this very little friction. People understand it. We communicate it and also often, they might not even see that we've switched to plan B because it's minor things.

Joost Schreve:

Right. That makes sense. I remember, actually, one of the travelers that was booked through you who was totally happy that the flight was canceled because then their family enjoyed the jeep ride to Pokhara instead of the flight. They were super happy with that. It's a great example of  just going with the flow.

Mads Mathiasen:

Yeah. They didn't have a lot of time, so the reason we had chosen the flight for them in the first place was to have as much time on the trail, but driving is not necessarily a bad idea because you see a lot from the drive between Kathmandu and Pokhara. As long as you look at the positives, you can always have a great experience no matter what happens.

Joost Schreve:

Right. Exactly. Great. I'd love to learn a little bit more about the activities that you're doing. I think you're doing quite a bit of innovative things in terms of mountain biking, motorcycling. I'd love to hear a bit more detail about it.

Mads Mathiasen:

Trekking is kind of the obvious thing that I love doing over all the years in Nepal, and therefore is also a core product in our company. Besides that two wheels is really my element whether it's mountain biking, which is my real passion as a sport, or it's motorbiking as a real way to get around Nepal and explore Nepal.

Joost Schreve:

Did you get into mountain biking in Nepal or did you do that in other places as well?

Mads Mathiasen:

Growing up in Denmark, mountain biking...well I guess we had the world champion when I grew up...it was not really that big. We don't have hills. I guess I was road cycling when I grew up, but mountain biking very quickly in my time in Nepal became something I really got into and I spent the last 20 years exploring mountain bike trails in Nepal.

Joost Schreve:

Right. Did you explore those trails yourself. Most of the trails are built for walking. Not all the trails are great for biking. Did you have to figure it out yourself or were other people also getting into it and could you learn from them as well?

Mads Mathiasen:

There was always some people doing it. Very few though. Those early years, I think I knew every mountain biker in Nepal. Of course, we share ideas. We still do because we're still finding great trails which haven't been ridden. Everyone shares this within the community of mountain bikers. It's still a process. There's trails, as you say. There's walking trails, ancient walking trail, all over the country, an incredible amount of it. It is just figuring out what links up and what is okay to ride because some of it is unride-able.

Joost Schreve:

Right. Like stone stairs.

Mads Mathiasen:

Exactly. Some of it is just a dream to ride, as well. It's just a continuous process and even within the Kathmandu Valley, where for years I would ride almost everyday. We still find new stuff.

Joost Schreve:

Right. What are some of the very popular, maybe best mountain biking trails? I can add some links to the notes here as well so people can read about it as well.

Mads Mathiasen:

Absolutely. The more popular, the more well-known, like the early on Kathmandu Valley rim is still absolutely on of the best places to ride in Nepal because the Kathmandu Valley has this lovely rim around it. Lots of forests. Lots of great trails. Still a good place to ride anything from just a day ride to 7 to 10 days around the valley rim. That's one area. For more touring style mountain biking - Kathmandu to Pokhara on the back roads on jeep trails is great. It has also been around as a trip for quite a long time.

Joost Schreve:

So you bike from Kathmandu to Pokhara and overnight a few times?

Mads Mathiasen:

Yeah. Absolutely. You sort of overnight in the bigger towns along the way. You don't have to carry a lot of gear with you. You can stay in basically little tea houses and hotels.

Joost Schreve:

That sounds great.

Mads Mathiasen:

It's great for that style of, as I say, more touring style riding. In later years, the Annapurna region and most of within Mustang has become, I would say, the mecca of mountain biking in Nepal, especially lower Mustang has become very, very popular for people coming over. Upper Mustang is absolutely amazing for it, but just the expense. We have a $500 permit fee just to get in Upper Mustang, just makes it a little bit too expensive for a lot of people. The trails up there are amazing. Truly amazing.

Joost Schreve:

The logistics are pretty doable. Can you ride pretty much everything or do the bikes need to be carried, as well?

Mads Mathiasen:

If you don't like to hike a bike, there are some sections where it'd be good to have a mule to carry the bike up some of the climbs. Most people just hike a bike for a couple of hours. Then you have these amazing long sweeping descent coming down. You don't have to do these hardcore parts of it now because there is a jeep trail all the way to Lo Manthang in Upper Mustang. If you're into the more touring mountain biking, then it's possible just to go up in the Jeep trail and back on the Jeep trail and really see this amazing place, Lo Manthang and Upper Mustang.

Joost Schreve:

Right. That sounds fantastic. And motor cycling as well. Can you maybe describe a bit what motorcycling trips people can do?

Mads Mathiasen:

I'm a sucker for older motor bikes. I've always had Royal Enfields, which is an old British classic that I've been riding around all over Nepal as a way for me to get around. I just like to be on two wheels and out in the elements. I've spent these years going all over Nepal, mainly on Enfields but also on dirt bikes. The Enfield handles all the better roads and the dirt bikes are great for all the new Jeep tracks that have been put mainly since 2008. There's been a huge development of new smaller tracks all over the hills of Nepal.

Joost Schreve:

And that has changed the landscape quite a bit as well. I guess you can use it to your advantage with those kinds of activities right?

Mads Mathiasen:

Certainly and I think within all kinds of activities. It's often viewed negatively that there's roads but they mean access to hospitals and markets for villages. So we can't really, in the tourism industry, say they're bad because some of the trekking trails are not the way they used to be. I like to look at them as opportunities for us as well. Mountain biking, motor biking, getting deeper into the mountains before you start your treks so you can really optimize your time on the trail and get to some really amazing places.

Joost Schreve:

That leads me to... You're also specialized in shorter treks as well. Some of the classic treks in Nepal can be quite long, and what I've seen you put together is often these really short treks that take you off the beaten path into really interesting areas. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that as well.

Mads Mathiasen:

This thing that I've always enjoyed with these shorter treks in the foot hills is...I've done a lot of the long, big treks and really high into the mountains and they're amazing. Truly amazing. A lot of them are for large parts of time, you're in alpine. For me, the interest in Nepal has been all the different cultures. There in the foothills you can access them with shorter treks, spending a lot less time in Nepal because not everyone can take five weeks off and go to Nepal. 

Joost Schreve:

We do see a lot of these shorter trips being put together. People coming, especially from the region, from Singapore or other countries nearby where people can take five days or a week something, right?

Mads Mathiasen:

That's correct. You absolutely can get in wilderness like we have this amazing ridge that we hike that's only half a day's drive from Kathmandu and another day's hiking and you're in country where I've seen plenty of leopards. I've seen bear footprint and there's nothing but wild forests and mountains. In a short amount of time, you can get away from it all. Or you can hike in areas where around every little twist and turn in the mountains, you come to another village, which has a distinct culture associated to it. You're constantly exploring new culture, new aspects whether that be architecture of the village, or dress, or language. There's so much to learn in the hills of Nepal and up in the mountains.

Joost Schreve:

Right. Those villages are not even reachable by car ride. There's just trails leading up to them. People have to hike for days to get to their homes.

Mads Mathiasen:

Exactly. Especially when you come into places where not a lot of visitors come, they kind of look and ask you, what you are hiking for fun? They can't believe it. For them, it's a chore. If you have to get to the road or get to markets, you have to hike for days, and here we come doing it for fun. It's like, why would you do that?

Joost Schreve:

Right. Lastly, it sounds like you're doing a lot of very special projects like filming with Red Bull. You do stuff with tigers in Bardia with photographers. Anything there that you would like to talk about?

Mads Mathiasen:

We've been lucky to be involved in some bigger filming projects, as you say, like Red Bull or a couple of mountain bike movies. Doing a variety of things is what keeps me interested. As you just mentioned also, we've been out with 17 photographers finding tigers in the Bardia National Park and everyone saw at least two tigers and got really close and got some amazing photography of them. We organized trail running races each year. Just doing all these different things really is amazing. Nepal is country where there's something for everyone.

Joost Schreve:

Right. I'll definitely put in some links in the notes, so people can find those photos and those experiences as well. Finally, you also run this really cool thing called Vespa Valley right? Can you describe what it is?

Mads Mathiasen:

Yes. It's a day tour company where we use all classic Vespas to show people that other side of Kathmandu, all the things that have kept me in Kathmandu for 20 years. We also use them to get around to the main sites, but it's not necessarily to get to classic site seeing sights. It's showing people all the sites of Kathmandu that they wouldn't necessarily get to otherwise. Seeing it from the back of a Vespa, you're in it. You see it and you experience it.

Joost Schreve:

Right. A traveler goes on the back and there's a driver or guide who drives around it?

Mads Mathiasen:

You're a pillion and you are chauffeured around the city. I had the opportunity to buy a few of these Vespas. Being someone who loves classic bikes, I couldn't help myself. I ended up having quite a few of them, and I thought, well gotta do something with them. I created this company and I made all my companies and made my old staff in the office, who had been with us for a long time, I made them shareholders. We all had equal share. It comes back part of how can I help Nepal and how can I help develop Nepal. It's kind of like a mentoring program in how to set up a company, run a company, and hopefully make them become really good entrepreneurs.

Joost Schreve:

Right, that's great. That's also innovation in travel is to start your companies in ways that people may not have thought about over there.

Mads Mathiasen:

Absolutely. All along we do profit share within the company and that's meant a lot of positive things. I was just thinking of treating my staff well. It's had so many positive follow on. I've kind of been surprised. Sometimes you do things for the right reasons, and because of that, you get a lot of positive outcome.

Joost Schreve:

Right. That's really great. Maybe a final question, in the fall of 2016, why should people come to Nepal. If people figure out, where should do my next big trip, why is Nepal the place they should go to?

Mads Mathiasen:

It's the same reason they should have come in 2013. Because it is one of the most diverse, amazing places on the planet. Right now, after the earthquakes and all Nepal has been going through, it's one of the best ways you can absolutely help Nepal recover and spend money and make sure people have employment. Right now, it's a win-win situation.

Joost Schreve:

Absolutely. That's great. Thanks, Mads. It's an honor to work with you on this. We are sending lots of people to Nepal and we hope to send many, many more people to Nepal as well. Thanks again very much for joining us today and I look forward to continuing to work together.

Mads Mathiasen:

It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Joost.

Joost Schreve:

Thanks Mads.