Mara Larson on organizing trips to the world's tallest mountains - Episode 14

Alex Buri:

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the 14th episode of the Kimkim podcast. My name is Alex Buri and I am the head of community here at Kimkim. Today, we'll be talking with Mara Larson. Mara has been organizing and leading trips around the world, including the Andes and the Alps, but mostly with a focus in the Himalaya. I've reached her in Chamonix where for the summer she is currently organizing logistics for people who are looking to climb and trek in the Western Alps. Nice to have you, Mara.

Mara Larson:

Nice to be here. Thanks, Alex.

Alex Buri:

Great. You were saying that you were just in Chamonix for the summer.

Mara Larson:

Yeah, that's right. I'm kind of on a little mountaineering world circuit most of the year. The Himalayan season occupies the spring and the autumn season, of course, because that's when it's in good climbing and trekking condition. In between the two, I kind of take a little bit of a pause and a return to more running out here in the Alps.

Alex Buri:

What are the trips like that you're putting together for the people that are coming there?

Mara Larson:

It's kind of full-spectrum. I came out here initially working on the logistics for some of the climbing trips as opposed to treks. Things like Mont Blanc and the Matterhorn. Some of the really classic named peaks. What's actually been going over the last years is people are much more interested in kind of coming out and doing hut-to-hut trips and kind of exploring the quieter side of the mountains out here.

Things like tours around the Mont Blanc Massif, something like the Tour de Mont Blanc, and then haute route trips, which is a really classic route going from Chamonix, which is on the French side of the Alps, over to Zermatt on the Swiss side. It's a really epic, multi-day trip where you can either be roped together climbing across a glacier or do some sort of foothills and alpine kinds of trips a bit lower down.

Alex Buri:

That sounds great. These are anywhere from three to four day trips that people are doing.

Mara Larson:

Yeah, generally speaking, when people come out here, you've got to get yourself at least a week or so to kind of get in and get into the elevation and get into the mode of walking and hiking. I would say most of the time people are coming out here doing somewhere between a week to 10 days.

Alex Buri:

Are these people with a background in these kind of treks or trips? Can anybody come and do this kind of thing?

Mara Larson:

Yeah, so it's kind of fascinating because I think it shifted quite a bit over the last few years. I think in the past coming out to the Alps was kind of something that you do walking, for example, as a retiree. There were lots of these beautiful trips with really consistent rolling trails in the lower foothills, but it's sort of been discovered and there's been a little bit of a resurgence I'd say in the last five or so years where it's been kind of picked up by the endurance crowd and the ultra crowd wanting to get in and do some really, really hard days.

The advantage is because the trail system is really, really well marked here. The maps are excellent and there's a series of mountain huts along the way. You can really adapt your days to doing something really hard and long. For example, 1,000 to 2,000 meter climbing day and end up at a stunning mountain hut where dinner is served. You can go in and have a hot shower and relax for the night. Carry very little and still have these massive days out. I think it's really starting to appeal to the sort of endurance crowd as opposed to just sort of retired folks looking to sort of amble through wildlife.

Alex Buri:

Is it pretty busy there right now then?

Mara Larson:

Yeah, July and August season are definitely busy. You've got to kind of make plans quite a bit in advance in terms of booking out huts, in terms of getting flights in and out, that kind of thing, so I feel a little bit like a ... What would you call it? Somebody in charge of like an airline flights and all the rest. Just trying to monitor that side of things.

To be honest, coming out in September on the shoulder parts of the season so say, early June to mid-month or early to mid-September, you get the beauty of these mountains and of this range but without quite the huge crowds. It's also because at that time of the year most of the European countries are off of their holidays and back in work and in school, so it definitely quiets down on this side as well.

Alex Buri:

Yeah, that sounds like the perfect time to go in the shoulder seasons. How did you, I mean, just briefly, maybe you could tell us a bit about your background and how you ended up getting into these kind of mountain trips and organizing them for people and kind of what led you to where you are now.

Mara Larson:

Yeah. The short version is that right out of university, yeah, I was working on a NASA project and at the time, they were looking to do a manned mission to Mars by 2020, which has obviously been pushed back for a while now. The idea was they wanted to use Mount Everest as a space analog study to see how the brains of cosmonauts would be affected by cosmic radiation in the same way that low oxygen seems to affect the brain at really, really high elevations.

Basically, we went out and did a bunch of testing from Everest of the climbers as they were ascending the mountain. Looking at how their cognition, attention, ability to sort of be adaptable and flexible in their thinking. How that was all changing in a low oxygen environment.

Alex Buri:

This was in 2000 and ... Early 2000s?

Mara Larson:

Yeah, early 2000s. 2003 to about 2005 or '06. Basically, what happened from there was, you know, I just kind of fell in love with ... In Himalaya, I had done a lot of distance running already at that stage and I was suddenly at a point where I could put a lot of those skills to use in terms of having really long endurance days, and it seemed to serve me really well up at 5,000 meters on Everest Space Camp and that kind of area.

Anyway, I stuck around and started managing expeditions, doing all of the logistics for the climbing trips on the peak for about a decade. Yeah, so it was kind of a ...

Alex Buri:

Wow.

Mara Larson:

A dumb luck transition from doing some science research into getting kind of fully immersed in the mountaineering world.

Alex Buri:

Yeah, so you showed up to do research in 2002 or '03 and then you would go on long runs and then just ended up loving it and staying for ten years.

Mara Larson:

There's all kinds of strange places that we all call home, but for me, you know, I would say for the greater part of the decade, Everest Space Camp really was my home away home. Yeah, quite the little community there.

Alex Buri:

You were on the glacier on the base camp there? Is that where you were most of the time when you were in the Everest space program?

Mara Larson:

Yeah, that's right. In the beginning, their research was based out of there and most of the testing we were doing was via radio and very early communication devices. Then later on, while managing expeditions, I was mostly at base camp, again, organizing rescue efforts, doing forecasting, and that sort of thing. Then slowly over time, I started to kind of ... I wouldn't say apprentice, but you know, tag along with the teams, help with maybe easy load carrying, making food, and starting to take care of folks a little bit higher up the mountain. It kind of opened my eyes to climbing in the 8,000 year world more for myself.

At a certain stage, it's great to just sort of be able to combine things that you're passionate about, so I was able to really transition my background in distant running into pushing myself at a pretty serious level at the extreme elevations. A lot of those, a lot of the training is very similar, a lot of the mentality about getting out and having really long, hard days ... Yeah, yeah, there's quite a bit of overlap.

Alex Buri:

When you were organizing the expeditions, this was for Jagged Globe? Is that right?

Mara Larson:

Well, yeah, a combination of companies so I did quite a bit of work for a British company called Jagged Globe and then some work with some American companies as well and some Argentinian companies. Yeah, a little bit of a mix of everything.

Alex Buri:

I mean it must have been an interesting experience seeing these people heading off for one of the hardest things, quite a challenge to climb Everest, and then, I don't know whether they succeeded or failed and then coming back and seeing what that experience was like must have been something.

Mara Larson:

I think that's actually what started motivating me to start leading trips and treks myself actually. I got so much inspiration out of seeing how these climbers evolved over the course of a two month expedition. You have people that have come in with plenty of experience. They were obviously very capable and had trained very hard for this over the years, but seeing how they developed in terms of their confidence and their understanding of the mountains and also just their sort of awe and admiration after that amount of time. That's kind of what I wanted to take back into trekking and getting into more remote places in the Himalaya and now here in the Alps as well. It was, you know, letting people kind of get inspired by what they can do for themselves. Everest was definitely the grounding of all that for me.

Alex Buri:

After ten years or after organizing all these trips in the Everest region, then you branched out into different parts of the world like the Andes, the Alps ... How did that happen?

Mara Larson:

I think what partly happened is I realized that ... I think a lot of us go through this point in our careers where you look ahead and say, "Well, I'm working pretty intensely." At that stage, I was working on a PhD and thought, I could come back and do this at any stage in my life, but when am I going to have the opportunity to be climbing these crazy peaks all around the world? I just felt like such a gift had been handed to me. I kind of put my PhD on pause for a little while and decided to transfer my skills into leading trips.

It was kind of a natural progression, I supposed I'd say, and I think what was really inspiring for me was, like I said, having the background in high altitude medicine and high altitude science was helping people realize how they can train and how they can really start listening to their bodies in order to improve their performance and be able to get into these high ranges, regardless of whether they started out as an athlete or just somebody really passionate about walking out in the mountains.

Alex Buri:

When you went to the Andes, for example, was that with Jagged Globe as well or was that with ...

Mara Larson:

Yeah, so heading out the Andes was with Jagged Globe. Coming out to the Alps was also with the same company. I think from their point of view it was great to give people opportunities when we wanted to be kind of all over the planet. As well, the logistics that go on on Everest are very similar to, on some level, to the logistics that go on out here in the Alps where you're just constantly having to anticipate different changes in the weather and how that's going to affect where people are on the mountains, what kind of climbs they can get on. In some ways, it is kind of similar kinds of work all over the planet.

Alex Buri:

All right. Are you still ... You're still today running trips in these three different continents. You'll go to the Andes in one part of the year and then the Alps.

Mara Larson:

Yeah, I mean I'm trying to consolidate a little bit these days. I think you and I were talking about it at an earlier stage, but there's also quite a bit that I found out here in the Alps and in Himalaya that we have ... That we can kind of simulate and do things with back in the U.S., too. What I've been really trying to do is bring back some of these things to Northern California where I'm spending a little bit more time in the winter months and helping people kind of build up skills and train to come out and do these things, so they're not having to learn on the ground when they're 10,000 miles away from home.

Alex Buri:

Right. Just for advice or recommendations for people that would want to do some of these trips that you're organizing and putting together and helping people train for, where would they get started? Is there ... They would just sort of pick a mountain range that they would want to go to, then a difficulty level, and then go from there, or?

Mara Larson:

In my opinion, having started in kind of a funny way ... I mean, most people's first entrance into the mountains isn't Mount Everest. What I've really learned and seen over the years is that people that focus on skills first just have such an incredible toolbox that they can get out and apply then all over the planet. Like I said, you don't have to come over to the Himalaya to do an introductory alpine mountaineering course. That's something that you could do at home in England or do at home in the Sierras of California.

Building up those rock climbing skills, building up experience with cramp-ons and an ice ax back home. You can get up to say the Creekwood Area in south Lake Tahoe and put incredible skills to use out there during the winter months that you could then use out here in the Alps in the summer or the Himalaya during our trekking and climbing season. I think we actually have to give ourselves a little bit more credit at home that we just have some beautiful, beautiful mountains there that provide a lot of opportunity for growing those kinds of skills.

Alex Buri:

Right, yeah, I mean I recently just moved down to California and I still haven't explored much of the local area, but it sounds like there's a lot to do around here as you're saying.

Mara Larson:

Oh, yeah, I mean I would encourage people, you know, if people are kind of listening and thinking where in the world do I start on this kind of thing. There's a classic place called Lover's Leap which is in the Tahoe area, which has great amounts of multi-pitch rock. A great place to learn starting out. The other thing that we're doing out there in the winter months is organizing some ski mountaineering races. Same thing, it's getting these skills that you could use out in the Himalaya, for sure out here in the Alps, going hut-to-hut through the winter. Learning these skills out in California where maybe you're not as concerned about a giant crevasse opening up underneath you and the concerns of crossing a glacier, but you're learning the proper ski technique of how to get yourself up hill.

Alex Buri:

Ski mountaineering race, is that usually a multi-hour event or is it ... Can they also be multi-day or how does it work?

Mara Larson:

I can't say I know of any multi-day events. Maybe that's the next evolution of the sport. You never know. No, I think for a lot of people, particularly runners or triathletes that are looking for something to do in the winter months, what seems to be really great in my opinion about ski mountaineering is that it's taking all the pressure off of your joints, so you're literally on skis with something called a skin on the base and what it does is it grips the snow as you go uphill, so that you're sort of sliding the ski with your heel detached and moving uphill. You're simulating ... Not even simulating, you're doing a pretty intense endurance workout, getting your heart rate up, improving cardio fitness, but you're not pounding on your joints as you might be, say, running on an icy pavement all winter long.

It's something I've definitely picked up spending winters in the Alps over the years that's really helped me be fit for going out to the Himalaya in the spring and kind of maintain the fitness to come into running in the summer months. In general, it's actually just really, really good fun. The races themselves, we're starting pretty small. With the races in California, they're typically about an hour to two hours long just because so many people are new to this sport. There's no point in going from a 5K to an ultramarathon. The same thing with the ski mountaineering. There's no sense in building up a skillset and then beasting yourself over a day that's just painful. Those things are certainly out there and their goals that people can have beyond our race series, but yeah, we're just trying to make it more inclusive for people to come out and get a little bit of a taste for what it's all about.

Alex Buri:

If people wanted more information, is there somewhere they could check out right now or?

Mara Larson:

Yeah, well, like I've said, we have some races running in Bear Valley so you can easily Google that. Then, by about the end of September into early October, there should be more information up with Sugar Bowl Ski Resort. That's where we're trying to run one this coming winter.

Alex Buri:

Okay, great. I'll add those to the show notes on our website so people can check that out later.

Mara Larson:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Alex Buri:

Great. I guess in September, you head back to Nepal now, right?

Mara Larson:

That's right.

Alex Buri:

What do you have planned for this fall there?

Mara Larson:

Yeah, I'm transitioning a little bit from doing the high peaks in the expedition world into some longer and more remote trips. Out in Western Nepal, places like Dolpo and a little bit farther out from there, there are still loads and loads of these easier but unclimbed peaks in a sort of 6,000 meter range. For me, there's a lot of appeal in terms of getting people out to explore areas that might be a little bit more off the beaten track. Basically, I'm going out and doing a Dolpo trip September into early October that's more of a rekkie than anything. To go out there and kind of explore the area and see where we might come back to do some easier trekking peaks down the road.

Alex Buri:

To get to Dolpo, that's about an hour flight from Kathmandu or?

Mara Larson:

Yeah, it's a flight in and then there's various loops that you can do in upper and lower Dolpo. We're doing a pretty basic trek in. I think it's going to be about 10 to 15 days all told, so not into the deep, sort of dark remote border regions unfortunately.

Alex Buri:

Oh, wow. Will you be doing other trips there as well after that?

Mara Larson:

Yeah, and then basically what I'm trying to do is kind of do a bounce of exploratory trips like that and bounce that with things like I'm doing an Everest three peaks trip in November that's going to be a little bit more of a quick trip for some friends and family members who are looking to do, not exactly a run through the Himalaya because I don't think they're looking for something quite that extreme, but kind of linking days together, so it'll be an Everest trip that's I think 12 days as opposed to the usual 18.

Alex Buri:

Oh, wow, so it'll be quite a bit faster.

Mara Larson:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again, with doing a bit of pre-acclimatization first just so that they do actually have the ability to get up above 3,000 meters without too much suffering.

Alex Buri:

That's great. Do you find going back to Nepal after all this time that things are changing quite a bit in terms of the, whether it's the trail running scene or the mountain climbing scene or?

Mara Larson:

Yeah, obviously it's changing on those levels, which I think is phenomenal for the country. I mean, you're seeing with the development of the local running community, the inspiration amongst not only just the villages but even, you know, the kids in Kathmandu. For example, this last spring while I was out there, we were starting some running races with some of the girls in the local schools thinking, you know, well, we'll start this easy, get girls out doing sort of 5 kilometer trail race and see if we can build up there. We had fifth graders through seventh graders thinking we'd maybe get seven to ten girls out on the first day and I think we had upwards of 40. I mean just massive numbers.

Alex Buri:

Wow.

Mara Larson:

Not only did they get out and just, you know, love the idea of getting out and doing sport for themselves because you know they've really watched tourists and foreigners come in and really appreciate the mountains over the years and I think it's a pretty exciting time that they're getting to explore these mountains for themselves and getting to make use of them in their own way. The part that was most amazing to me is that we got back and these girls were so excited and we thought, okay, what should we think about doing for our next big race out in the next couple months?

The youngest ones actually said to us, "Well, actually, next time, can you take us up the bigger hills?" You know, they actually wanted to go longer and steeper. I just think that says great things for the future out there that we're getting girls interested in sport at a young age and at a time where they can be looking in pretty positive directions for new things.

Alex Buri:

Okay.

Mara Larson:

Runners like Mira Rai who's obviously gotten a lot of international acclaim. She's obviously done tons to grow the idea of girls being able to get out and find ways of exploring.

Alex Buri:

Yeah, I know I've been following along with her in the media over the years. It's amazing. She just has such a positive attitude and sets such a great example that I can see what you mean.

Mara Larson:

Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Buri:

Yeah. Well that's great. Thanks for coming on the show. I've been ... I really appreciate taking some time. It's been great hearing a little bit more about what you do and I hope to see you in Nepal this fall in September of October if you're heading back.

Mara Larson:

Yeah, absolutely. I look forward to seeing you out there.

Alex Buri:

Okay, great. Thanks, Mara. We'll be in touch.

Mara Larson:

Thank you.